Shabda Pramana: Enlightenment through Words in Advaita Vedanta: Presenting a Dialogue

Dialogue Between Teacher and Student Where Self is Revealed to the Student

Abhilash is a member of the NEEV Advaita Study Group which I run for teaching Advaita. We haven’t met physically. He had an intense devotion to attaining Self Knowledge and pursued his study and dialogue in the group as well as with me personally in WhatsApp despite his demanding corporate job. This particular dialogue happened with me in WhatsApp. One can see the insight taking place live in the dialogue and almost share with Abhilash his excitement on the disovery of his true Self. This dialogue was not planned at all. It started right in the middle of a light chat. I have provided my comments in italics whereverI have deemed the need for some added explanations.

[20:51, 7/8/2020] Abhilash : Its interesting to witness how the mind the mad monkey jumps around
[20:51, 7/8/2020] Abhilash : But when it pulls the body into action … we still have an option to chose to act or not right?
[20:52, 7/8/2020] Abhilash : I know the one who chooses is still the mind
[21:10, 7/8/2020] Anurag: The intellect will do it’s action on the mind. That is what it’s meant to do.
[21:11, 7/8/2020] Anurag: Post realization, the distinction between mind and intellect and body ceases.
[21:11, 7/8/2020] Abhilash : 🤔
[21:11, 7/8/2020] Abhilash : How exactly
[21:12, 7/8/2020] Abhilash : We can discriminate then right
[21:12, 7/8/2020] Anurag: All have equal value in front of Witness. All are objects in awareness
[21:12, 7/8/2020] Anurag: Yes of course.
[21:12, 7/8/2020] Abhilash : Ahh that way
[21:13, 7/8/2020] Abhilash : So why does the intellect fail to apply that control
[21:14, 7/8/2020] Abhilash : When we get angry and do something that we think later we should not have done
[21:14, 7/8/2020] Anurag: So everything is seen as one machine. When you drive a car you are not visualising all the parts separately. All the parts together work smoothly and you don’t break them or analyse them while driving. The only feel you get is that of a single car running. ( I am continuing my explanation on how all distinctions of objects mentally appear irrelevant)
[21:14, 7/8/2020] Abhilash : Nice 🤣
[21:15, 7/8/2020] Abhilash : It’s become even more clear
[21:15, 7/8/2020] Anurag: Anger is a thought and the thought that one should not have got angry is also a thought. Both are equally objects to awareness. (I am commenting on his query on intellect wanting to control anger)
[21:16, 7/8/2020] Abhilash : But intellect can influence
[21:16, 7/8/2020] Anurag: Arre !
[21:16, 7/8/2020] Abhilash : Before it turns into an act ..right?
[21:17, 7/8/2020] Anurag: Intellect is nothing but thought.
[21:17, 7/8/2020] Anurag: The influencing thought is no different from the influenced thought to awareness.
[21:18, 7/8/2020] Abhilash : (What about Self as being the) The non doership and the witness
[21:19, 7/8/2020] Anurag: All these divisions of body-mind-intellect are only added superimpositions to Self. These divisions do not exist in reality. They are made to make you understand. (Self is always a non-doer. You don’t have to make it a non-doer. You have to recognize that body-mind-intellect is the doer)
[21:19, 7/8/2020] Anurag: The witness is also a thought till you are not knowing yourself as Self.
[21:20, 7/8/2020] Anurag: The way of Advaita is to keep taking you from gross to subtler and subtler forms (Witness is the last subtle thought form you are asked to abide as before you know Self as Witness)
[21:21, 7/8/2020] Abhilash : Ok
[21:22, 7/8/2020] Anurag: This is because you take it as an act to be done. When you know Self as Witness it is not an act to be done but something which is always the case. (First I cleared his doubt that non-doership is not an act but propert of Self and now I am clearing his doubt that Witnessing is also not an act of mind but the very property of Self)
[21:22, 7/8/2020] Anurag: The practice of witnessing takes you to the Self/Witness.
[21:23, 7/8/2020] Abhilash : When we say takes us to self
[21:23, 7/8/2020] Abhilash : Self is not a destination or object (right?)
[21:24, 7/8/2020] Anurag: Why do you bother about this? The thinker/doer/experiencer are impermanent objects. They are not there in deep sleep.
[21:24, 7/8/2020] Abhilash : Agree.. the self always is
[21:25, 7/8/2020] Anurag: It helps in discriminating Self from all objects which are superimosed on it as not-Self
[21:26, 7/8/2020] Abhilash : Self then is still something
[21:26, 7/8/2020] Abhilash : That the mind paints .. at least as an abstract
[21:26, 7/8/2020] Anurag: Of course Self is something.
[21:27, 7/8/2020] Anurag: It is Awareness.
[21:27, 7/8/2020] Anurag: You are aware of the screen on which you are typing. This awareness is Self.
[21:28, 7/8/2020] Abhilash : But when we sleep.. I am not aware of anything
[21:28, 7/8/2020] Abhilash : But yes.. I am aware that I was asleep
[21:28, 7/8/2020] Anurag: Absolutely !
[21:29, 7/8/2020] Abhilash : Aham bodham? (What about discriminating ego from Awareness?)
[21:29, 7/8/2020] Anurag: If as I said you are Awareness, then where is your confusion? ( I am now refusing to go into further discriminating and reasoning with him and taking him directly to awareness as I can see that he is now ready for the final leap)
[21:31, 7/8/2020] Anurag: The ego is nothing but the ignorance that makes you feel that you are not awareness but identifies you with body/mind/intellect
[21:32, 7/8/2020] Abhilash : Exactly
[21:32, 7/8/2020] Abhilash : That’s where I am stuck up a bit
[21:32, 7/8/2020] Abhilash : The awareness being a phenomenon of mind
[21:32, 7/8/2020] Anurag: So if you realize that you are awareness, the illusion of ego is broken.
[21:33, 7/8/2020] Anurag: But you yourself said that in sleep there is no mind and yet awareness is present. (So how can awareness be in the mind?)
[21:33, 7/8/2020] Anurag: In sleep, awareness is aware of “no objects’
[21:33, 7/8/2020] Abhilash : That’s when mind is awake
[21:34, 7/8/2020] Anurag: Or awareness is aware of “no mind”. The same awareness that perceives the gap between two thoughts.
[21:34, 7/8/2020] Anurag: But it is reporting something that happened in sleep. (responding to his observation that awareness of sleep happens only when one wakes up and not while one is sleeping)
[21:34, 7/8/2020] Abhilash : But that’s still in the mind/head
[21:35, 7/8/2020] Abhilash : Its reporting the experience of absence
[21:35, 7/8/2020] Anurag: Yes.
[21:35, 7/8/2020] Anurag: So awareness is present in sleep too.
[21:36, 7/8/2020] Anurag: When there is no mind in sleep then how can you say that awareness is in the mind. It’s the opposite. Mind is in Awareness.
[21:36, 7/8/2020] Anurag: How can a subtle thing be inside a gross thing ??!!
[21:37, 7/8/2020] Abhilash : Because for a waking mind that has memory of all the incidents and time … it knows there was absence of incident during that period of time when mind was asleep
[21:38, 7/8/2020] Abhilash : So it tracks back to be asleep for that period
[21:38, 7/8/2020] Anurag: Abhilash space is subtle or matter?
[21:38, 7/8/2020] Abhilash : Space is subtle
[21:39, 7/8/2020] Anurag: Now matter is in space or is space in matter?
[21:39, 7/8/2020] Abhilash : But the mind is calling it the space
[21:39, 7/8/2020] Abhilash : Space is everywhere
[21:40, 7/8/2020] Anurag: Yes, the mind is subtler than space because it perceives space.
[21:40, 7/8/2020] Abhilash : Matter is in space
[21:40, 7/8/2020] Anurag: Abhilash space is everywhere but can matter affect space in any way.
[21:40, 7/8/2020] Abhilash : Matter cannot affect space and space cannot affect matter
[21:40, 7/8/2020] Anurag: Can the gross affect the subtle?
[21:41, 7/8/2020] Abhilash : Is this Asparsha? (It means contactless. No objects can contact Awareness so awareness is always pure and uncontaminated. Asparsha Yoga is mentioned by Gaudapada in Mandukya Karika)
[21:41, 7/8/2020] Anurag: Just answer my questions.
[21:42, 7/8/2020] Anurag: What is aware of space?
[21:43, 7/8/2020] Anurag: Mind is aware of space.
[21:43, 7/8/2020] Anurag: What is aware of mind?
[21:43, 7/8/2020] Anurag: Awareness is aware of mind.
[21:44, 7/8/2020] Anurag: How do you say that awareness is aware of mind? Because something was present in deep sleep when the mind was absent. That something is awareness or Witness. It is never absent. It is present in all three states.
[21:45, 7/8/2020] Anurag: This awareness sees the absence and presence of mind.
[21:46, 7/8/2020] Abhilash : Mind
[21:47, 7/8/2020] Abhilash : Ahhh… something that watchess our thoughts.. awareness.. still another level of mind
[21:48, 7/8/2020] Anurag: It’s not mind.
[21:48, 7/8/2020] Abhilash : That’s the last piece that I cannot get through bha
[21:48, 7/8/2020] Abhilash : Bhai
[21:48, 7/8/2020] Anurag: It is aware of mind. It watches the mind coming and going in the three states.
[21:48, 7/8/2020] Abhilash : I know
[21:49, 7/8/2020] Anurag: Then you are through 🙂
[21:49, 7/8/2020] Abhilash : 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🙂🙂🙂🙂
[21:49, 7/8/2020] Abhilash : Is this watching like we watch something ?
[21:50, 7/8/2020] Anurag: Absolutely.
[21:50, 7/8/2020] Anurag: We watch the presence or we watch the absence
[21:51, 7/8/2020] Anurag: In waking and dream we watch the presence of objects. In sleep we watch the absence of objects.
[21:51, 7/8/2020] Anurag: Or watch the presence of world and watch the absence of world.
[21:53, 7/8/2020] Anurag: Watching is the only thing happening all the time. And that is what you are.
[21:54, 7/8/2020] Abhilash : Ok.. so we are that watcher/self/witness
[21:54, 7/8/2020] Anurag: 👌
[21:54, 7/8/2020] Abhilash : This gave me goosebumps
[21:54, 7/8/2020] Abhilash : I am getting it 🤣🤣
[21:54, 7/8/2020] Anurag: It should if you grasped it 🙂
[21:55, 7/8/2020] Abhilash : Wow
[21:55, 7/8/2020] Anurag: Yes you are !
[21:55, 7/8/2020] Abhilash : This is amazing 🏃🏃🏃🏃
[21:55, 7/8/2020] Anurag: 🙂
[21:55, 7/8/2020] Abhilash : I can see I.am getting excited
[21:56, 7/8/2020] Abhilash : I get it 🙏🙏🙏🙏
[21:56, 7/8/2020] Abhilash : Choiceless awareness is also not really clear (this is a refernce made by Abhilash to a practice I had given him based on th teachings of J Krishnamurti)
[21:56, 7/8/2020] Abhilash : 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
[21:56, 7/8/2020] Anurag: Now recall what I told you yesterday. You have almost got it. Scroll back and see.
[21:56, 7/8/2020] Abhilash : Wow
[21:57, 7/8/2020] Abhilash : I still have goosebumps
[21:57, 7/8/2020] Abhilash : 🤣🤣🤣🤣
[21:57, 7/8/2020] Abhilash : You did say
[21:57, 7/8/2020] Abhilash : And am in tears now
[21:57, 7/8/2020] Anurag: Great ! Enjoy
[21:57, 7/8/2020] Abhilash : Awestruck
[21:59, 7/8/2020] Abhilash : The weight of water the dam was holding has exploded
[21:59, 7/8/2020] Abhilash : 🌊🌊🌊🌊🌊
[21:59, 7/8/2020] Abhilash : That’s how it is
[21:59, 7/8/2020] Anurag: I am happy for you sir !
[21:59, 7/8/2020] Abhilash : 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
[21:59, 7/8/2020] Abhilash : 🙏🙏🙏🙏🙏🙏
[22:00, 7/8/2020] Abhilash : You are the best Anurag Bhai
[22:00, 7/8/2020] Abhilash : I have no doubts about this
[22:00, 7/8/2020] Abhilash : Thanks a lot
[22:02, 7/8/2020] Abhilash : You were relentlessly giving time and it shows how committed you are towards this path you have chosen
[22:02, 7/8/2020] Abhilash : Cant thank you enough
[22:02, 7/8/2020] Anurag: Chalo. I will go for a walk. Meanwhile relax. Let it sink. And welcome for all your thanksgiving. You deserve it for all your dedication. And remember doubts can still creep up. But also remember that doubt too is a thought appearing to the witness 🙂
[22:03, 7/8/2020] Abhilash : Enjoy your walk Bhai
[22:03, 7/8/2020] Anurag: 👍
[22:03, 7/8/2020] Abhilash : You are always there to clear our doubts
[22:03, 7/8/2020] Abhilash : We need you !!
[22:03, 7/8/2020] Abhilash : Good night Bhai
[22:03, 7/8/2020] Anurag: Now you are Self Abhilash !
[22:04, 7/8/2020] Abhilash : The fire I mean .. to light more lamps
[22:04, 7/8/2020] Abhilash : You lit me up
[22:04, 7/8/2020] Anurag: It’s the tradition….the sampradaya….
[22:04, 7/8/2020] Abhilash : 🤗
[22:05, 7/8/2020] Anurag: I am a link in that chain. Now you are one. Always give back to this sampradaya.
[22:05, 7/8/2020] Anurag: Nurture it for the remainder of your life.
[22:06, 7/8/2020] Abhilash : 🙏🙏 I will Bhai and for free
[22:38, 7/8/2020] Anurag: And remember if any doubts do creep in – firstly, know it is just a thought that appears to awareness. Secondly, no harm in asking me for clarifications.
[22:45, 7/8/2020] Abhilash : Got it 🤣
[22:45, 7/8/2020] Abhilash : I like that point .. it’s another thought in awareness .. nailed it
[22:46, 7/8/2020] Abhilash : Asparsha!!!! (It means contactless. No objects can contact Awareness so awareness is always pure and uncontaminated. Asparsha Yoga is mentioned by Gaudapada in Mandukya Karika)
[22:46, 7/8/2020] Anurag: Yah ! This is a vaccination I give to everyone who realizes Self. I mean I have it to you and Vivek only till now. Lol !
[22:47, 7/8/2020] Anurag: Righto ! (It is Asparsha)

Conclusion: Even Liberation Happens in Ignorance

The intent of this article was to share the philosophy and practice of attaining enlightenment in Advaita Vedanta along with a live example. I also wanted to show how this process is so unique and different from all other paths of yoga and meditation. Nowadays, very few teachers know and practice the true method of teaching Shankara Advaita Vedanta even whn they claim to be followers of Shankara. I have given enough quotes from Shankara in this article to show his actual method of attaining liberation. The day after Abhilash got enlightened, he posted this to the group

Ignorance and Enlightenment are only states of the mind. Self always remains Self like the sun shines whether we perceive day(enlightenment) or night(ignorance) . Well, I shall allow Shankara’s disciple Suresvara to explain what this means, and end this article

“If you say that knowledge and ignorance as experienced by the mind (cp. SureSvara, T.B.V.II.578) are attributes of the Self, that is wrong. For we are directly aware of them as objects. Discrimination and non-discrimination lie in the mind and are objects of perception, like a patch of colour. A patch of colour, being an object of perception, cannot be an attribute of the perceiver. And Ignorance is formulated in one’s own experience as ‘I am confused, my understanding is not clear’. In the same way, the clear discrimination arising from knowledge is also a matter of experience.” Men of knowledge communicate their knowledge to others, and others receive iv. ‘Wherefore, knowledge and ignorance belong to the realm of name and form. Name and form are not attributes of the Self. For there is that other upanishadic text, ‘The ether, verily, is that which determines name and form. That within which they lie is the Absolute’. (Chand.VIII.xiv.1) And this name and form are merely imagined in the Absolute, like day and night in the sun. From the standpoint of the highest truth, they do not exist. (Taitt.Bh.II.8)”

This is the “vaccination” which I referred to, at the end of my dialogue with Abhilash